Sobejano: We aren’t particularly interested in developing an architectural language. We tend, instead, to adhere to certain conceptual principles. These can vary considerably and are dependent on the type of project. But certain approaches are characteristic of our way of thinking. We often strive for a combinatory process in order to make a project more complex. With respect to Moritzburg, for example, one interpretation would be that the goal was to create a vast roof. The point of departure, however, was a pyramid-shaped skylight; the shape of the roof came about by combining it in different sizes on different levels. And for our addition to Kastner & Öhler, a department store in Graz situated within a historic context and the accompanying roofscape, the basic element is a single skylight that determines the structure, lighting and spatial impression. In this way it is possible to achieve all this complexity and variety with a single detail.
Detail: Do you decide to single out one specific element, or do you develop an idea from a complex combination made up of context and layers of time?
Sobejano: Although our projects sometimes make a straightforward impression, in reality they are not. It would be more accurate to say that we pose a number off different questions – which often appear to be unrelated – and set out in search of responses. In this manner, even aspects that at first seem incidental can become the key to a design. But back to Moritzburg – even though the project was inspired by the city’s roofscape, it is to an equal extent based on a painting by Lyonel Feinstein, and on the character of the existing ruins. There are, you see, usually many powerful influences, and we attempt to bring them together in a clear architectural concept.
Detail: The roof obviously plays a very special role in many of your designs. Are roofs too often neglected in architecture?
Sobejano: Yes, modern architecture opened many doors, but it closed others, and one of those is related to the tectonics of the roof. The roof garden – which was a new element at the time – is the exception. But only a small number of modern buildings really place emphasis on the roof with respect to spatial impression and lighting. The opera in Sydney by Jorn Utzon is one such exception. We have recognized – to a large degree subconsciously – that the roof can be the point of departure for the building’s silhouette in cross-section, the choreography of light, and its space per se. The articulation of the roof offers incredible possibilities which were denied architects by the canons of classical modern architects.
Detail: The Moritzburg castle in Halle and the department store in Graz – the latter set for completion this coming spring – are both characterized by striking, expressive roofs. There has been criticism in Graz of the roofscape as out of scale, or as too imposing for a city on Unesco’s World Heritage list. How can the roofs be explained with regard to their respective contexts?
Sobejano: There are projects that open up specific paths – this was the case for the castle. It was the first time that we won a competition outside Spain and were faced with an entirely new context and historical background. As point of departure we engaged intensely with Halle, and our concept ultimately stems from what we encountered there, including, for example, the texture of the city, or an empty wing of the former castle. The competition in Graz attracted us because it was a competition for a roof. An unusual case, it was truly only concerned with the roof. Other architects were responsible for the rest of the building. But then the project started to become more complex than the Moritzburg castle, after all. Our philosophy of architecture does not foresee simply placing a new roof containing a few restaurants on top of a building. But we saw the opportunity to create new terraces within the roof landscape and to employ the skylights to open up the spaces below. Furthermore, the decision to work with a system of parallel roofs – an idea we’re exploring for the conference centre in Zaragoza – is based on the analysis of Sackgasse and its vicinity, situated below the Schlossberg in the historic centre. The entire roof is visible from the Schlossberg. The commission was also complicated by the fact that the existing structure consisted of 3 buildings from different eras, and the roof’s task is to unify them. As you mentioned, the project met with criticism in Graz, and the coordination with Unesco was quite difficult. In the end it was a success, and by reducing the height we managed to create a contemporary roof in the historic centre. This was supported by the mayor and the political parties and is very important for the city because historic preservation should not turn cities into empty monuments.
Detail: To what extent is the roof perceptible inside the department store?
Sobejano: Thanks to their considerable height, the skylights direct light through cuts in the ceiling decks. Although we are not involved with the lower levels, there is still a link, and we take the entire space into account. We like Graz very much, especially the narrow streets and small squares in the historic centre. To some degree the roof terraces are a translation of the urban fabric.
Detail: That is, in other words, the opposite of the other project in Graz, the visitor centre at the Joanneum Museum?
Sobejano: Exactly. There the issue is urban public space at street level. In Graz we are working, on the one hand, amid the roofs. And on the other, at the Joanneum, a project we are doing in partnership with eep architekten, the preconditions are much different from those of the department store, which is made up of buildings segment dating to the seventeenth and nineteenth centuries that have since undergone significant alterations. The museum district, in contrast, consists of the main building, dating to the eighteenth century, and an early Baroque building. We recognized that there should not be a new intervention in the existing building and were the only firm among the competition participants who didn’t propose a building visible from the exterior. We were interested primarily in creating a new square that would transform the former garden courtyard into a public square. Ultimately, the project is about a pure surface, like our museum in Madinat al-Zahra near Córdoba; that project is located right next to the ruins of an Islamic city once made up of palaces – an incredibly rich cultural heritage. We felt that this context should not be disrupted by protruding building components. Although some of our projects are sculptural, others are the complete opposite.
Detail: Particularly from the German point of view, among your projects, Moritzburg castle has special significance and is in some respects a spectacular work. But you have mentioned that you consider yourself to be a part of the Spanish „anti-spectacular“ tradition. What do you mean by this?
Sobejano: We have always been opposed to the “spectacular” architecture that is ignorant of its surroundings. Of course, Frank Gehry’s Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao had a major impact on how many politicians think, but Bilbao is an exception in that it still functions well. In the case of many other so-called spectacular buildings, the designer simply wants self-fulfilment. And that has nothing to do with the specific nature of the place. But we always see our buildings in relation to a certain interpretation of the respective site.
Detail: Many of your buildings are conversions and additions which constitute a carefully thought-out approach to the existing building. You speak of the necessity of being able to read the existing building, and to reveal its codification. Are such commissions a good fit with your approach to architecture?
Sobejano: We did not set out to do refurbishments, but the work came to us, and we were very interested in it. In recent years issues related to architectural history were almost completely eradicated from the discourse. It was a topic in the 1980s, but during the last fifteen years almost no one spoke of history. For us, however, everything has a grounding in history, and even when we are not working in a historical fabric – such as at Moritzburg or the Arab ruins – the past is always present. At the Contemporary Art Center currently under construction in Córdoba, for example, the site is across from the Mezquita, a former mosque and one of Spain’s most important buildings. Consequently, our building makes reference to it. We are not interested in building in context in the conventional sense, but with a more open way of thinking. If we are dealing with historic buildings, as in Graz or in many different places in Spain, then not in the strict sense of the Charter of Athens, which stipulates that the contemporary intervention must be distinctly revealed. We believe that there is something in between: the contemporary intervention that manages to find the key to the existing fabric and attempts to add a chapter to the overall development. Of course this is a difficult aspect of architecture. Nobody can expect to add something to a symphony or a painting by Rembrandt, but everyone understands that even very important historic buildings can be altered or added to. In this respect, architecture differs from the other arts.
Detail: Does the knowledge you gain from your work with existing buildings influence your designs for new buildings? You once said that every project is in some way present in your mind and must merely be read or decoded. Is this also true of your new buildings?
Sobejano: Absolutely, our entire background, which was not only formed by looking at historic buildings, but which must be understood in a broader sense, is always present in our minds and will find expression in our projects.
Detail: But what is it in concrete terms that you set out to detect? Is it purely the context, or does it include the needs of society?
Sobejano: It’s difficult to put in concrete terms, because each of us can recollect so much. We draw a frame when we look at something and disregard other aspects. What one selects has, of course, a great influence, and for each project, we start from scratch when making this selection. I am convinced that our way of seeing historic buildings correlates with and influences our new buildings.
To explain I would like to cite an example. The underlying idea for our approach to the Madinat al-Zahra project originated in our recollection of an excavation site in Syria that we had visited with students twenty years earlier. The archaeologist subdivided the site in a classic grid and excavated the layers one at a time. We decided to proceed in a similar manner. That led us to a concept in which the project is to appear as if it has been unearthed. As time passed we articulated it more precisely – right up to the structure and materials. The concept to excavate the building as an archaeologist would demanded a building completed as an intact unit and led to a structure employing concrete, which – once poured – keeps its final form. Perhaps one can view this as the inversion of an archaeologist’s work.
Detail: Your research heads in different directions and you have different sources of inspiration. You transform and translate. But how is a concept gleaned from the process?
Sobejano: This gradual extraction process is part of all our work; as architects we must always do that. The notion that one can take something away and still understand the whole and express one’s idea – that is indeed always behind it. We are inspired by many things, but we do not simply replicate them. For the Contemporary Art Center in Córdoba we employed an abstract version of an Islamic geometric pattern. We didn’t merely use it like wallpaper, because regardless of how elegantly that is done, it is still ornamentation. We make reference to the repetitive pattern in Islamic art that expands in all directions and transform it into an architectural space. In this process the floor plan became a series of hexagonal spaces in different sizes, and the elevation a row of inverted domes which form both space and structure and consequently are diametrically opposed to ornamentation. The main elevation facing the river, in which the polygonal basic element is generated many times over, is ornamental, but contemporary at the same time. In cooperation with Realities United, a Berlin-based group of artists and architects, we have conceived of and built it as media facade. It is a perforated screen whose openings are lit by LED. We like to talk about memory and invention with respect to how we deal with the existing context. On the one hand, one needs to be able to remember what was present at the site and what one experienced there, but also the power of invention in order to ensure that one doesn’t merely add something new, but rather to discover the essence of the place. That doesn’t mean that we always find out what it is, but in Córdoba we were successful at it. And in retrospect we notice that much of what characterizes this project had been developed or Moritzburg, for example the pyramid-shaped elements which we inverted here.
Detail: You teach fundamentals of design, with an emphasis on expermental form-giving, at the Berlin University of the Arts. What role does an experimental modus operandi play in your own work?
Sobejano: We always attempt to integrate an experimental approach in the design process – we are not a mainstream office. We get about ninety percent of our work from competitions. Participating in competitions is always coupled with a certain degree of pleasure in architectural experimentation. It’s not about coming up with a specific style or constantly repeating oneself, but rather immersing oneself anew in the respective project. And as it turns out, designs can come about which vary in appearance although they were developed based on similar trains of thought. This process is coupled with experimenting with space and materials. We attempt to develop specific architectural elements for the respective designs, be it material, facade, structure or the detailing. And we also try to convey this approach to our students. What excites me about the Berlin University of the Arts is that architecture meets up with video art, sculpture, and music. To me, architecture is closely tied to all forms of art.
Detail: Your selection of materials is as varied as your projects are. What significance does combining materials have to you?
Sobejano: Materials and structure are linked as closely as possible to the project’s overall concept. For the Moritzburg castle we needed a lightweight element to contrast with the existing heavy, grey walls. It is not strictly structural; its surface reflects the sky. The decision process was lengthy. For the museum and research centre at Madinat al-Zahra the references are more direct. The flat roof is sheathed in Corten steel, because the building makes reference to the tenth-century Islamic palace city in a variety of ways. The city was laid out in a rectangular plan; the facades were in red and white stucco. We pick up on that with the white exposed-concrete walls and the red Corten-steel roof, which engages in a dialogue with the surrounding landscape.
Detail: You experienced foreign cultures at a young age, went to a German school in Madrid and to Columbia University in New York. Today your office has a number of projects abroad. What influence has this international milieu had on your architecture?
Sobejano: I don’t think our architecture differs from country to country. Of course, it changes due to different influences. But these influences have more to do with how the construction work is organized and adherence to the respective country’s building codes. At the start of each design, we always work in the same way, whether the project is in Spain, Germany or Switzerland. In this sense, architecture has boundaries. But when the project progresses, there are major differences between Spain and Portugal, on the one hand, and Germany, Austria and Switzerland on the other.
Detail: Are some aspects harder in Spain?
Sobejano: There are – and this applies to all locations – advantages and disadvantages. For many years, clients in Spain and even society at large were very open to new architecture. For the last 15 years, every major newspaper has had a weekly architecture column. This stirred the public’s interest, and that, in turn, influenced the politicians, who then initiated competitions that enabled young architects to realize their designs. That definitely played a role in the recent success of Spanish architecture. On the other hand, the construction industry, construction firms, and the engineering profession are not up to par with Germany’s. That is why many of the interesting concepts are executed at a rather low standard. In contrast, in German-speaking countries much emphasis is placed on immaculate execution, and sometimes the essence of the project is lost along the way. We have an office in Berlin, and there – as is Madrid – we have employees from both countries, and sometimes jokingly tell our German employees to be more Spanish, and vice versa.
Detail: How important to you is the articulation of details and connections? Is the work sequence in your office organized in such a way that you have control over them?
Sobejano: In Spain, details are well thought out, but are not typically well executed. That’s why the Corten-steel plate used in the project at Madinat al-Zahra is not attached by means of a special detail, but appears to be simply set in place, in contrast to the Moritzburg castle, where we very precisely executed the roof employing aluminium plate. We develop the details for every project – we never use standard details. For the conference centre at the Expo 2008 in Zaragoza, it was most important that it be built quickly, a situation which we do not like, because we want to have control over the different phases. For the shed roofs, we – in cooperation with the manufacturer – developed lightweight pre-fabricated elements with fibre-reinforced concrete and combined them with the ceramic tiles typical of Spain; it is similar to how Utzon employed them at the Opera in Sydney, but in a heavier reinforced-concrete version. In this project, how the ceramic cladding reflects the light is very important to us.
Detail: In many of your projects, the elaborate, artistic facades command attention .
Sobejano: For the extension to the San Telmo Museum in San Sebastián, we developed – with the artists Ferrán and Otero – a special facade made of untreated cast aluminium. Every cast-aluminium element is perforated; the surface is rough, but where it is cut, it is shiny. The result was a rich concept that makes reference to the genius loci of the site at the foot of the Monte Urgull, on the edge of a cove and covered in lush vegetation. The facade appears to be irregular, despite the quasi-industrial processes utilized to produce it. The facade’s complex appearance was brought about using only one casting form. Plants will grow through the openings; on the back of the wall is a hydro-culture. In this way a green facade was created – without visible planters. It was more important to us to relate the new elements more strongly to the hill, to connect them to the topography, than to the existing building. Because there was very little space available in the city, the new building is concealed within the hill.
Detail: Many people credit your project in Moritzburg with ringing in the twenty-first century there. What makes your architecture contemporary?
Sobejano: Architecture that I am interested in must respond in a certain way to the given context. The problem is that it is not easy to predict what traces one will leave behind. During the planning phase it is difficult to recognize whether or not a building reflects a specific point in time. It is easier to say 15 or 20 years down thd road: “That is a design from the 80s, a sign of things to come.” There are projects that encapsulate such a moment or such conditions. The Guggenheim Museum in Bilbao is probably one of those significant examples, coming exactly at the right time. I’m not sure if Frank Gehry was fully aware of his path-breaking role. He often said that he was surprised by the development. I understand your question, but I can’t answer it, except to say that it sometimes simply happens.
Detail: Do you hope that your buildings will remain largely unaltered, or could you imagine that, let’s say in 50 years, a competent architect could continue composing them?
Sobjeano: As I mentioned, architecture is the only art form whose works can be added to and adapted. Consequently, of course I accept that, and I realize that it could happen in some cases. But there are also projects that exist in a different sense. We just completed a project for a temporary market hall in Madrid, which is to substitute for the larger market hall – which we are also planning – during its construction. Although it is only a temporary structure, this design opened many doors for us. Buildings don’t necessarily have to be long lasting in order to have special meaning.
